The Cheerleader

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The CheerleaderThis past winter, I moved back to my hometown in Texas for a few months. In March, an old friend of mine from college came to town for a business trip. We hadn’t seen each other in ages, so I invited her out for dinner and some drinks and I told her I’d show her around my home town. I hadn’t seen this friend in at least three or four years. She was one of the first friends I made in Boston when I moved up there, but by the time we graduated, we had drifted apart a bit, really only bumping into each other at parties and whatnot. After school, we more or less lost touch completely, only occasionally chatting on Facebook. Needless to say, she had no idea what my job was.

When she came into town, I told her about it over dinner. She’s a pretty cool girl and thought it was interesting, if not a bit funny. Although, as with just about everybody who’s known me since my pre-PUA days, she teased me about it mercilessly.

“So, what exactly qualifies you to be doing this job again?”
“Come on, you saw me at the end of college, I was a manwhore.”
“I see. And is ‘manwhore’ a job title or job description on your resume?”

A little later, she playfully said, “OK, when we go out tonight, you have to pick up a girl. I don’t believe in this nonsense. You need to show me.” I give her the usual runaround that I don’t pick up on command. She chides me a bit. We laugh and leave it.

I don’t know what it is, but every time this happens, every time someone in my personal life challenges my profession and my, I guess, pick up skills for lack of a better way to put it, some ridiculous pick up happens in front of the person. It’s happened to two of my best friends. It happened with my ex-girlfriend a couple years ago (she was NOT happy about it). It’s happened in front of my brother (with a female police officer, no less). It even happened once in front of my dad and step-mom a couple years ago (our waitress at a restaurant basically threw her phone at me until I promised to call her). This night ended up being no different.

And the funniest part is that when this happens I don’t consciously step up my game or anything. I hate the whole idea of picking up girls to prove something to someone else. And I hate it when people challenge me to do crap like this. It makes me feel uncomfortable. But it’s almost like there’s a Seduction God, and I’m the Chosen One — the moment someone doubts me, the Seduction God puts the most ridiculous opportunity in front of me, inviting me to prove everyone wrong in grotesque fashion.

You can probably see where this is going.

Enter the beginning of the tale. It’s after dinner. We’re downtown now and in the midst of getting hammered together. We’re catching up on old times.

As the night dragged on, the bar we were sitting at became more and more crowded, until we became those two drunk assholes who insist on still sitting at the bar with their drinks even though there are like 25 people behind them trying to get served. Usually I relish a bit in being so obtuse. But something changed. Out of the corner of my eye, I see a tiny brunette with a beautiful face and tight little body trying to squeeze in near me. I’m suddenly inspired to make an exception. I scoot my stool over and nudge her in next to me. She thanks me with a big smile. I smile back and ask her name. She tells me. I can’t hear her, so I put my arm around her and pull her into towards me gently, she follows. She tells me again. She’s young. Really young. And really hot.

I can tell she’s young not just by how young she looks (she looked probably 17… I know, I’m dirty), but she wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer either. In fact, she was one of those bubbly, excitable girls who giggles at everything to the point of it being a little obnoxious. She later told me she was 19 and showed me one of the shittiest fake ID’s I’ve ever seen in my life. Either the door guy is blind, or she did something I don’t want to know about to get let into this place.

We talk a bit. It comes out that she’s a cheerleader for the local university. She seems to be proud of this. The university is one of the largest in the country with one of the most prestigious sports programs in the country, so this is actually not a small feat. Getting into that cheerleading squad is probably insanely competitive. So I assume it’s actually something worth being proud of. And at 19, it’s also a safe bet that this also probably accounts for most of her identity and self-esteem. So I decide to compliment her on it.

“That’s impressive. I bet it was very hard to get onto the squad, especially as a freshman.” She says it was. She tells me about how competitive it is, how hard she has to work. I tell her that she must love it. She does.

“I think it’s great that you’re so dedicated to something you love. Not many people are that lucky. I bet a lot of people don’t realize that too. They don’t see the dedication and the work you put into it. They just see the short skirt and cute face.” She’s beaming now. She agrees. She talks about how rude the male athletes can be, how she loves to travel to the away games all over the US. It’s all very exciting for her. She’s getting excited. It’s cute. So I tell her. I say, “You’re getting excited just talking about it. It’s really cute.”

It was also clear that she had not been to many bars before. The way her eyes lit up as she suggested we all do shots can only be described as the way a little girl reacts when you tell her she’s getting a pony for Christmas. I say, “Sure, let’s get shots.” With no hint of irony, she actually cheers my decision. I pull her onto my lap and tell her I like her. She smiles really big and puts her arms around me and presses her face against mine. I look over at my friend with a shit-eating grin. She shakes her head and rolls her eyes.

I introduce cheerleader to my friend, although my friend has a strained look of pain behind her smile. My friend is actually pretty much the opposite of cheerleader: very smart, very witty, in her mid-20′s and a Boston-native with a no-bullshit attitude. She didn’t so much talk to cheerleader as lob sarcastic comments over her head the rest of the night.

The conversation from then on was uhh… pretty inane, to be honest. So my friend’s sarcastic comments were actually what kept me entertained. Honestly, other than talking about how all the guys on the football team are assholes — and if you don’t think I milked that conversation for as much “Us versus Them” framing as possible, then you don’t know me very well — other than that, I don’t remember what we talked about. She was hot and I was drunk. And that was sufficient.

Every now and then, she would get a huge smile and say, “I just want to have fun tonight!” The her innocent enthusiasm was actually a bit contagious. I look at my friend and say, “Hey Friend, we’re going to have fun tonight!” obviously rubbing in what was going on. She shakes her head and chuckles:

“You’re ridiculous.”
“You asked for this! You wanted to see this!”
“I know… I did. But I’m quickly regretting it.”

Cheerleader asks us how we know each other. I tell her that we’re old friends from college. The fact that I’m out of college and went to school in Boston appears to sound exotic to her. She’s a small town girl from Texas, first year of college. Not hard to impress.

Eventually my friend excuses herself to go home. She can see the writing on the wall and is tired after a day full of meetings anyway. I take cheerleader to the back bar where I know the bartender. We get a couple free shots and start making out. It’s almost closing time and I sort logistics out. My place was not an option that night, so it has to be her place. Cheerleader lives off campus, has her own room, has a roommate, her roommate is here at the bar. I need to meet the roommate ASAP.

I get introduced to the roommate. Roommate has a boy with her, this is good. Roommate met boy tonight. This is very good. Roommate says she’s seen me making out with cheerleader. This is also good. Roommate asks me if I’m aware cheerleader has a boyfriend. This is bad.

Roommate pulls me aside and gets very serious. I prepare for the massive cockblock that’s obviously coming. Roommate begins to blather on about how cheerleader is in a long-distance relationship with her high school sweetheart, but they’re having a lot of trouble and how they should break up (in her opinion), but it’s complicated and that I should probably be aware of, blah, blah, blah…

And then she does something unexpected. She interrupts herself and says, “Actually, you know what? Go for it dude. To be honest, she really needs to get laid… bad.”

Wait, what? Seriously? She then says she won’t get in the way, but that I should know it’s a complicated situation and it may get messy.

Wow, what an awesome roommate.

I go back to cheerleader. She’s throws her arms around me. Some more chit-chat, some more making out, some more chit-chat, and it’s time to go. I just assume I’m going home with her, I don’t even say anything. It never comes up, but I hold hands with her and start walking with her. The plan is to walk with her until someone says otherwise. Roommate’s got my back. Roommate’s guy (who turned out to be cool) has got my back. So I’m just going to roll with it.

It turned out that these girls lived on the other side of downtown, across the entire campus, a three-mile walk. I was too drunk to drive. And being broke college students, they refused to pay for a cab. At one point I said fuck it, I’ll pay for a cab, but downtown was crowded because of a festival, so there were literally no available cabs on the way back.

I have to say, nothing kills the mood more than a 45-minute walk to some girl’s apartment, her in high heels, and you stopping to piss in the bushes every 10 minutes. I tried to keep things light and fun as much as possible, but there was only so much one could do. At one point I ended up carrying her a good 3-4 blocks on my back because her feet hurt so bad. Halfway through she began complaining incessantly. And for a while towards the end, it felt like I was losing her completely. She got distant and quiet at points. But I said fuck it, I’ve walked this far. If worse comes to worse, I’ll just sleep on her couch until I sober up.

She had been one of those A.D.D. girls who texted a lot all night. But about halfway into the walk, she really started to text non-stop, and even at one point took a drunk dial from somebody. I really can’t emphasize enough how much this 45-minute walk sucked. And then it went from bad to worse. As the walk went on, I came to find out it was her best guy friend from back home who she was talking to. This same guy was texting her and calling her non-stop, not a bunch of random people. Sounds fishy. I asked her if she had ever dated him (“no”), how long she had known him (“all through high school”), how good of a friend he was (“he’s my best friend, he’s always there for me”) and how often they talk (“every day”). Right, OK. So this dude has been trying to bang her for years, was put in the friend zone, and now that things are falling apart between her and her boyfriend, he’s all up on her, trying to Nice Guy/Best Friend his way into her pants, and is freaking because she’s going home with some guy she met in a bar. First of all, I empathize with the guy (been there), but more importantly, he’s probably jealous and trying to derail things.

I played it cool for a bit. I let most of it go. But the texts just kept coming faster and faster and then they became phone calls… and she was taking them. I tell her at one point, “You should tell him you have to go.” She does. 10 minutes later he calls back. So I say, “Let me talk to him.” She quickly gets uncomfortable and hangs up. She didn’t pick up his calls again after that.

We finally get back to her place after what seems like ages. The mood is definitely killed. We’re both tired. We’ve both sobered up quite a bit. She’s getting noticeably nervous and awkward. I’m guessing this is the first time she’s ever brought a boy home. There are pictures of her and her boyfriend in her room. Very awkward. Not sure how this is going to pan out.

She goes to the bathroom for something like 15 minutes. She’s either taking a massive dump, or texting her super-best-friend again. Maybe both. I sit and wait patiently. It’s almost 4AM.

She comes back to her room. Gets undressed down to her underwear (wow, what a body), turns the light off and hops into bed, rolling over immediately so her back is facing me.

I kiss her some and gently turn her over. She’s a bit cold towards me, but after some kissing she warms up and reciprocates. At this moment, it’s important to understand a few things. These were some pretty extreme circumstances for her (the boyfriend, her age, the inexperience, the walk home), and clearly she’s not comfortable and we’re on a collision course for massive LMR any second now; something I haven’t gotten in years and have rarely ever gotten period.

(For the uninitiated, LMR is when a girl resists having sex with you even after she’s gotten into bed and fooled around with you. It usually indicates that when push comes to shove, she didn’t like you as much as she thought and she changes her mind. Typically it has more to do with her not trusting you, rather than her not being attracted to you.)

So there we are, in bed together. She’s uncomfortable. She’s going to be cutting me off any second. In this situation, there’s always a fork in the road: you can do the typical freeze-out/high-pressure PUA bullshit to try to manipulate her or annoy her into giving up the resistance. Or you can be honest about the situation and resign yourself to accepting the fact that you may not have sex tonight.

Guys, listen. Always, always, always go with the second option. It may sound counter-intuitive, but you have to go with the second option. Not only because it’s the right thing to do. Not only because it’s what any respectful human being should do. But because if you make it clear that there is absolutely no pressure for her to sleep with you, if you show her that you can be trusted and that you’re OK with whatever she decides (and by the way, you do need to be OK with whatever she decides), then she’s going to become ten times more comfortable with you, and therefore is actually more likely to WANT to have sex with you. You are in bed with her half-naked after all, it’s not a question of want, it’s a question of trust and comfort.

Besides, sex with girls who aren’t excited to have sex with you is fucking awful. It’s worse than masturbating. I never get LMR and from now on, neither should you. Stop pressuring these girls. Let them know you’re OK without having sex and do actually be OK with it. Most of them will soften up and it’ll end up happening naturally and it will be a far more pleasant experience for both of you.

Yes, not all of them come around and decide to have sex with you. But guess what? They weren’t going to have sex with you anyway.

So laying there in bed with her awkwardly, I state the obvious:

“You’re not totally comfortable with this right now, are you?”
“No, I’m not.”

We talk about it. She’s only been with two guys. She’s never had casual sex. She’s nervous about it. Although she does say she wants to do it. She says she’s in college now, that she doesn’t love her boyfriend anymore and she wants to be able to enjoy herself and do what she wants to do. She wants to experiment and have fun (“I just want to have fun tonight!” rings in my ears from earlier in the bar.)

After talking about it, some of the burden seems lifted from her. She’s lighter. She’s nuzzling herself into me now. For the first time since we left the bar, she seems like she’s actually happy I’m there. I tell her we can fool around and if at any point she feels uncomfortable we can stop. She says OK. We talk and joke and kiss some more. And at one point while kissing, I begin to take it further.

Afterward, drifting to sleep, she says, “Don’t take this the wrong way. But can you not be here when I wake up?” I tell her OK. Then I hold her until she falls asleep.

Soon the sun peeks through the blinds. Dull light shines across the walls and picture frames, settling in white geometry over photos of her and her boyfriend. I creep out of bed. Silent, I put my clothes on and step out of her room. In the bathroom her phone is on the counter. I pick it up and look at it. There’s a text message from the best friend back home, “Don’t do anything you’ll regret.”

I walk out, and walk back alone in the dawn.

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93 Comments

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  • Reply

    Nik

    5 months ago

    This is Gold Mark… “Or you can be honest about the situation and resign yourself to accepting the fact that you may not have sex tonight.”

    This second option took me a year and half to realize on my own. I now make sure the girl is comfortable throughout the seduction process and it gets amazing results.

    Unfortunately, I’m not sure I’d be able to stay as chill had I not already been in those situations before (in bed with a random girl). I’m talking about the confidence that comes with been there done that type of scenarios, where if nothing happens its no big deal. Any suggestions for lesser experienced guys?

  • Reply

    modernguy

    5 months ago

    “But can you not be here when I wake up?”

    Lol. Another slut gets her wings. Score one for empty sex and modern dehumanization.

    • Reply

      Rick S

      5 months ago

      What are you doing here if this is your attitude?

      • Reply

        Tim

        5 months ago

        Exactly.

    • Reply

      Mark

      5 months ago

      I don’t know what you’re talking about modernguy. Cheerleader and I are happily engaged and currently planning our wedding. How dare you make such assumptions about people you don’t know.

    • Reply

      D

      5 months ago

      I didn’t want to do this, but this is bothering me.

      The term “empty sex” (“meaningless sex”?) is retarded. Sex – regardless of its context i.e. casual or in a relationship – is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS an emotional experience, just as basketball or soccer or any sport is always an emotional experience. Just because those emotions are adrenaline, excitement, passion, energy, primality, horniness, etc. instead of more “romantic” feelings doesn’t NOT make sex an emotional experience.

      How, then, could anything be “inhuman” when infused with such natural instinct and base emotion?

      Next I’m gonna be told that Die Hard is an “empty movie” or that Boxing is an “empty experience” lol.

      • Reply

        Samantha Troi

        3 months ago

        Oh my god. This comment is AMAZING? I hope you’re ok with my quoting you constantly.

      • Reply

        Jammer

        3 months ago

        Sex is never empty and void of emotions, some “lays” are simply better than others. Like sports games!

  • Reply

    Axel

    5 months ago

    Ahaha. A “Seduction God.” Must be related to the same God that presents me with an opportunity to do a cool trick when absolutely no one is looking. “Dude did you see that??” “Lol. See What?”

    When you realize that a woman is just not about to have sex, do you always acknowledge it as soon as possible? I wouldn’t want to just stop in my tracks because that would be akin to a freeze out, no?

    Great storytelling. I loved the part where you probed about where it counts the most. You basically related to a huge part of who she is. It sounded like that emotional intelligence you have talked about before.

    I also sympathize with the best friend. Obviously he doesn’t know better but he still seems to have tried to exert control over her. ” Don’t do this. Don’t do that.” All subtle ways or leading to getting her pants. Almost makes one prefer an asshole who outright calls out what he wants.

  • Reply

    Kevin

    5 months ago

    You’re in your later 20′s, right? Did the age difference come up at all, from her or her friends?

    Just asking because I’m about the same age and I’ve got a bit of a mental hangup myself about hitting on younger girls, and would interested to know how much of a problem it is for you in general, or what your general approach to handling it is.

    • Reply

      Mark

      5 months ago

      Nope… I’m 27. Been with three 19 year olds and a 20 year old in the last year or so… my age has never even come up once. In fact, I think they often see it as a turn on.

      My guess is that’ll start to change around 30.

      • Reply

        scripted

        5 months ago

        I doubt it. I’m 30 and I still get a lot of attention from the 21 year olds, perhaps even more than before.

        If you’re in-shape and you look relatively young, nobody seems to care.

        • Reply

          Mark

          5 months ago

          All I know is that every year I get older, the more attention I get from women, both young and old. I’m sure part of that’s my fitness, my dress and my confidence. But every year since I was 21 has been easier than the last. Don’t know when that trend will peak, but I’m pretty sure not for a while.

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            1. I know some women think that age adds to men’s sex-appeal.

            2. I think that most women prefer older men, so it’a a matter of statistics. When I was 21 I dated guys who were ~21 years old or older, and now that I’m 26, I probably won’t go below 29. So the older a man gets his target audience gets bigger.
            For women it’s the opposite, of course (although I do pin my hopes on the cougar trend).

            And regarding the peak age – I think it’s safe to say that until your late 30′s you have nothing to worry about, and if you remain fit and financially stable, you will always have women attracted to you.

  • Reply

    Jason

    5 months ago

    That walk home sounded brutal. I’ve been done in by situations like that before and it’s such a bummer. Hours of effort down the drain. This was a great read overall.

  • Reply

    hilanoga

    5 months ago

    You worried me there for a moment, but the last part is gold advice.

    Sometimes you just need to respect your partner and accept that you can have fun even if the evening doesn’t end with a “lay”, as you planned.

    For instance, as a teenager I did everything you can imagine with my sexual partners that didn’t include penetration (I had this idea that my first time should be meaningful). So I used to start every sexual encounter by explaining my partners that while I do want to make out with them, we will not sleep together.
    Now, some men tried to convince me the entire night*, and some tried to sneak in in after a while like I wouldn’t notice. I think none of us managed to have fun like that, and I remember those encounters to this day with a slight nausea.

    But it doesn’t have to be like that. One guy, after I gave him my regular speech said “OK, I respect that”, and you know what? He actually meant it. He didn’t try to persuade me with cheap lines, didn’t say one thing and meant another, didn’t wait a couple of minutes and then tried again – nothing. We had great sex (that didn’t include penetration). He kept talking about how great it was for years (“That night I walked home like a cowboy”, I think this is how he described it), and I still think that this is one of my most enjoyable casual sex experiences.

    So seriously – don’t use cheap tricks, we do notice them and it’s annoying and ridiculous. After meeting so many assholes, being respected is a very powerful experience, and you know what – you can have fun within your partner’s bounds.

    * “Do you masturbate? Oh, it’s practically the same thing!”, “Why not? Why not? Why not?” and my all time favorite, “If you think this is fun, imagine what my dick can do when it is INSIDE!”

    • Reply

      Mark

      5 months ago

      You know, when I first got into the PUA stuff, I did the usual LMR crap — freeze outs, push/pull, reframing, dirty talk, etc. Sometimes it worked, a lot of times it didn’t.

      About a year into it, I started hooking up with this 20-year-old virgin. Nothing worked on her. We hooked up 2-3 times and I’d try to push things and she’d always stop me at the last second.

      Eventually I kind of gave up. But I liked her, so I told her that I respected her not wanting to lose it and that I wouldn’t pressure her anymore. I told her that I just liked fooling around with her and she was a really cool girl. And I meant it. So we fooled around on and off for a few months.

      And then one night, she came home with me as usual and out of no where she said, “I want to lose my virginity tonight, will you do it?” And suddenly, rather than just getting laid, it took on a lot more meaning and significance. I knew it meant a lot to her, so it ended up meaning a lot to me. I made a point to be really cognizant of how she felt and make it the best experience possible for her. And as a result it ended up being a very intimate and special experience for both of us.

      That made a big impact on me… and that may be where my attitude toward this stuff started… and why I never get so-called LMR. Sex isn’t the most important thing, it’s the experience you share. And sex is sometimes a side effect of that.

      Anyway… end drunk rambling…

    • Reply

      Fluffy McGee

      5 months ago

      “So seriously – don’t use cheap tricks, we do notice them and it’s annoying and ridiculous. After meeting so many assholes, being respected is a very powerful experience, and you know what – you can have fun within your partner’s bounds.” – hilanoga

      “You know, when I first got into the PUA stuff, I did the usual LMR crap — freeze outs, push/pull, reframing, dirty talk, etc. Sometimes it worked, a lot of times it didn’t.” – Mark

      The irony here is that openly expressing to women that you don’t care if you get laid IS just another dirty trick… this is how I have dealt with LMR for years, and yes it works wonders. I never understood the whole freeze out / reframing / , because all you need to do is sincerely tell them you are cool about not having sex. It really is this simple…

      • Reply

        hilanoga

        5 months ago

        Yeah, but from time to time you just won’t get sex even if you do that. If it annoys you, most of the time it comes through in sex.

        Besides, as I said before – many of the classic PUA tactics are meant to imitate good and healthy behaviors, but sometimes what makes the difference between great men and assholes is not what they do, it’s why they do it.

        • Reply

          Fluffy McGee

          5 months ago

          “Yeah, but from time to time you just won’t get sex even if you do that. If it annoys you, most of the time it comes through in sex.”

          Very true, but in those cases, you likely wouldn’t have gotten it any other way either.

          “Besides, as I said before – many of the classic PUA tactics are meant to imitate good and healthy behaviors, but sometimes what makes the difference between great men and assholes is not what they do, it’s why they do it.”

          Something else I can agree with, you and I are on good terms today. But we all do it for the same reason, we want to get laid. It’s just part of being a man.

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            “Very true, but in those cases, you likely wouldn’t have gotten it any other way either.”
            Yup, that’s the point :)

            And women also want to get laid. Really. My friends and I spend 80% of our time together talking about sex. And men. And vibrators. And shower taps (is that how you call the thing that is attached at the end of the tube in English?). And dildos. And men. And which fingers are better for certain tasks. And many men together. And hitting on men. And men. And vibrators. And vibrators vs. dildos. And other women. And men wearing cakes. And…
            Ahem, sorry, I got carried away a bit. What was I talking about?
            Oh yeah, sex!
            So, I think that while wanting to get laid is legitimate, it is better if you can also emphasize with your partners. If you do, then taking time is not a dirty trick, it’s a genuine concern for the other person’s safety and feelings.
            It’s OK to be horny, but it is important to get your priorities right. If you are more worried about your next orgasm than about what’s going on with your partner (and it looks like this is usually the case with PUAs), then there is a problem.

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Well… the next time you and your friends are in Japan look me up =] I’ll teach you guys all about tentacle porn and how to use those tiny pink dildos that sound and look somewhat like a toy car (^o^)

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            LOL!

      • Reply

        Mark

        5 months ago

        No irony there. It’s not a tactic if you mean it. Hilanoga hit it on the head, and I’ve been writing it for years:

        It’s not what you say to her. It’s WHY you say it.

        • Reply

          Fluffy McGee

          5 months ago

          Well the irony is that by explicitly stating to a girl you don’t care if you have sex, you end up having sex… but please lets not start arguing about the definition of irony, I’m all argued out today.

          Sorry Mark, you know how you have a lot of pet peeves about the PUA industry? I have a lot myself, and one of them is the “I’m a PUA with a heart of gold” rhetoric that gets thrown about everywhere. As if PUAs are in some sort of denile that there is even the tiniest pinch of evil inside them.

          I use this openly as a tactic because I know it works, and don’t wish to hide behind a carefully crafted illusion where I’m incapable of wrong doing or evil, and my intentions are only good.

          I feel this heart of gold mindset is closely linked to the Self-evaluation maintenance theory, which is a bit interesting imo. It’s quite interesting and can help explain a lot of phenomena, right down to various aspects of alpha-male theory.

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            We are all capable of doing wrong, and we all do wrong. Don’t you think it’s better to try to avoid that?

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Of course, I just don’t see the point of attempting to assimilate a tactic to the point where it courses through my veins naturally, solely for the sake of claiming my own innocence.

            Unless of course you wish to protect yourself… from yourself?

            For me it’s kind of a lesson in self awareness, do I really need to pretend like I’m such a great guy? Most people don’t wish to be evil, myself included, but I’m fully aware that my mind shapes information in such a manner as to exclude me from being defined as evil.

          • Mark

            5 months ago

            I think you’re over-analyzing this… it’s not a tactic. It’s communication.

            I don’t think you’re understanding the whole idea of the intention behind action determining what the action is.

            And the fact that you interpret this stuff as tactics and “pretending to have a heart of gold” and “pretending like I’m not evil” implies that you still see seducing women as somehow inherently wrong or immoral.

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            The morality of it all is something we must constantly question.

            Don’t get me wrong Mark either, I’m not implying you’re evil. I’m implying that perhaps at times we all act selfishly, rather than selflessly, but at the end of the day, we want to remember the good that we did and forget the bad.

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            To be blatant, it sounds like you really don’t give a damn about your partner.

            That’s just unfortunate.

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Sometimes I really don’t care much about them… I don’t wish them bad fortune or anything like that. Sometimes I’m just in it for the fun though, and they probably are too.

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            I think I will watch my tentacle porn with someone else…

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Awe man… but I got one with a Russian cosmonaut and a Koala that join in on the action… You’ll be sorrrrrry…

          • Mark

            5 months ago

            If you and I were hanging out, and I said, “Let’s go eat.” And you said, “No, I’m not hungry.” And I replied, “OK, well I can wait.” And then two hours later you became hungry and we ate… would this qualify as me pretending to have a “heart of gold?” Would it qualify as a “tactic?” Would it qualify as irony?

            Because I call that just being a normal human.

            When I say in the post, “And you do need to be OK with her not having it,” I meant it. I put it there for a reason, because it’s true. Sometimes these girls never want to have sex with me. And that’s fine. I’ve discovered about myself that I’d rather have a real and intimate experience with a girl without sex, then to have shitty forced selfish sex with a girl who is ambivalent about it. That’s just me though. I know other guys who don’t give a fuck…

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Damn, I’m good at pushing people’s buttons today it seems ~

            With regards to your analogy, I just don’t see why you express that it can’t be viewed as a tactic. It’s funny because I also write about PUA stuff a lot as well, and I whole-heartedly consider this a tactic. I also can agree, tactic or not, this is a healthy attitude to have in general, but once you’re aware of it and its significance… it kind of becomes a tactic…

            “I think the hidden assumption in both of your comments is that there’s something wrong or manipulative about a girl wanting to have a one night stand with you.”

            It’s funny that you would phrase it like this rather than: “There is a part of me that feels guilty using this tactic (or non-tactic) concsiouslly to convince a woman to sleep with me.” If the girl is just looking to get laid, she probably won’t put up this much of a fight to have sex with me, but there is a part of me that feels a little guilty when I use this knowing full well that it gives me an advantage. I guess I could have an attitude where, if she ends up sleeping with me, then that means she definitely wanted to sleep with me, which means everything I did to get there was OK. This just isn’t me though…

            Sorry for being such an ornery bastard today. I should really work on anonymous people skills…

          • Mark

            5 months ago

            OK. I mean you can call it a tactic if you like. But by that definition, any conscious behavior could be considered a “tactic.” So eulogizing your dead grandmother, telling your sister that you miss her, buying your girlfriend roses… if you want to call these tactics, then go ahead.

            I personally think the word guts the emotional connection out of the actions, which is why I don’t prefer to use it.

            Did I want to have sex with this girl? Absolutely. Did I get her to open up about her not being comfortable to make that more likely? Absolutely. But I don’t see it in terms of using a “tactic.” To me, it being a “tactic” implies that I didn’t actually give a shit how she felt, I was just doing it to up my chances. I actually did give a shit about how she felt. Because honestly, laying in bed awkwardly with a girl who doesn’t want you there sucks. It sucks for both of us. So I wanted her to feel comfortable. And I wanted her to feel comfortable with me.

            I think if I had not given a shit and just wanted to get laid at any cost, and faked sincerity, then it’s just a tactic. But in my mind this was something more.

            So call it whatever you may, but understand that your way of defining it is what’s causing everyone to disagree. And it also makes you come across oblivious to the emotional implications of your actions. Whether you actually are or not, I have no idea. But that’s how you sound right now.

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Well, I defined it as a tactic, because it’s useful as tactic. Most men won’t know what to do in this situation, so this is how I describe it to them.

            I realize I sound a bit like a prick, but that’s just me tbh. There is a beating heart in my chest, and I have emotions just like everyone else though =]

            Anyhow, I once again apologize for pissing you off today Mark. Have a great day ~ I’m gonna relax a bit now. Had a rough week of food poisoning recovery (T.T)y.

          • Mark

            5 months ago

            1. Just because something CAN be used as a tactic doesn’t mean it’s always IS a tactic.

            2. Selfish actions and selfless actions aren’t mutually exclusive.

            3. I can’t help but feel like you over-analyze a lot of this stuff. If you look at the emotion/intention side of the equation, it’s actually very straight-forward.

            Actually care/empathize = genuine action
            Don’t care/want only sex = manipulation and tactics

            What hilanoga and I have been saying since comment 5 is that an action can be either one of the above… what changes it is intentions. If your only point is that making her feel comfortable CAN be used as a tactic… well, then we agreed with you way, way back.

            *** Oh and I’m not pissed off… I can be very direct and forward when debating people… I just think you’re being a bit argumentative and not seeing the point.

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Cool, I do over-analyze, I am being argumentative and I didn’t really see the point =]

            We are now in agreement.

            I think being in Japan for so long has warped my reality somewhat to be honest… You should take a trip here sometime ~

          • Breeeeeeeeettttttttttttt

            5 months ago

            I don’t think he sounds UNAWARE of his emotional process, Mark, I think to me it sounds like he has some inherent feelings of guilt tied to sex for whatever Freudian reason, and therefore can’t help but equate any sexual action as being manipulative. That’s just my opinion.

            And, Mark isn’t saying, “It’s ok if you don’t want to sleep with me” to the girl because he knows that will make her more likely to sleep with him. He’s saying that because he genuinely feels it’s ok if the girl doesn’t want to sleep with him.

            Yea, you can argue that he does want the girl to sleep with him in that situation, we all would. But Mark is compassionate and understanding enough to get what the girl is going through, and good enough of a human being where he feels her feelings of discomfort outweigh his desire to have sex. That’s not being manipulative, that’s being a good person.

            Yes, it is ironic that this display of being a good person makes girls feel more comfortable around you and therefore more comfortable being physically affectionate.

            I’m not really sure how to make the point to you that the intention is what makes the difference between being manipulative (selfish intentions) vs. genuine (altruistic intentions) because it seems like Mark and Hil have been trying to do that for a while and it hasn’t gotten through. This makes me believe that you don’t believe being anything but selfish is possible. It seems to me like you believe that anyone who feels like altruism is possible is lying to themselves and actually has selfish intentions deep down. I believe you think this way, because that is how YOU feel – and is therefore how YOU see the world. This freaks me out because it makes me think that you actually ARE a selfish person, in a self-fulfilling prophecy sorta way, and is why I wouldn’t watch tentacle porn with you either (on top of many, many other reasons)

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Well Brett, you already hate me from another thread so your opinion is completely biased.

            How is that glue holding your straw man up on that other thread anyhow?

          • Mark

            5 months ago

            Watch it Fluffy…

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Aye captain =]

  • Reply

    Drama

    5 months ago

    Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez

  • Reply

    Fluffy McGee

    5 months ago

    Btw, completely off topic but, did you go to UT Austin Mark? Funny thing is that so did I.

    I just find it funny that you are pretty much the only respectable PUA writer I have stumbled across thus far online.

  • Reply

    Phil

    5 months ago

    My last lay was a similar situation to Marks in some ways. We had been together for the whole night, hadn’t really esculated physically or anything. Once we get back to hers and start undressing for bed, I kind have this feeling that sex was unlikely. We had both had a long night, no physical esculation, and were both sobering up. So I just thought to myself that I may as well be cool with that and accept it, no reason to make this situation awkward or make her feel uncomfortable. So we get into bed and cuddle up a bit. And then after ten mins, of lying there, something naturally starts to happen.

    We start to grind a bit against each other, and then one thing leads to another, and another etc. I honestly think had I not been cool with just lying there not really too bothered about not having sex, for example if I had made some kind of pushy attempt or verbalized something in such a way that made some kind of demand I think A it could have become vey awkward and B sex would be even more unlikely.

    So accepting not having sex with a girl often brings sex, its a very zen kind of thing. That said, I dont think you should ‘accept’ not having sex in the hope of having sex. You have to genuinely detach yourself from the situation and really be cool with not having sex, if its clear that it doesnt look like its going to happen.

    I think actually being cool with not having sex is just like a lot of other things you learn in dating/pick up. You learn in a similar way to be detached from other elements with girls, like letting go if a girl is not interested in you etc.

    • Reply

      Fluffy McGee

      5 months ago

      “So accepting not having sex with a girl often brings sex, its a very zen kind of thing. That said, I dont think you should ‘accept’ not having sex in the hope of having sex. You have to genuinely detach yourself from the situation and really be cool with not having sex, if its clear that it doesnt look like its going to happen. ”

      Every pick-up “tactic” will work better if it’s genuine, but faking sincerity is second best. And if the best approach is being OK with not having sex, then why not fake it?

      For me personally, I usually want to get laid once LMR comes up. Although being cool with not getting laid is a genuine feeling, I’d be fooling myself if I thought this attitude was anything short of another dirty trick to get laid.

      • Reply

        Phil

        5 months ago

        Well personally I think this is more then a pick up tactic, its respecting the situation and the other person. You cant force sex and sometimes you really do have to accept that your not going to have sex even if you want to. I didn’t accept that I wasn’t going to have sex because I believed it would be a clever tactic, I just genuinely felt that it didn’t seem like it was going to happen at the time.

        Its more about not wanting the situation to get bad or to force anything and just go with the flow as opposed to a ‘tactic’ per se in my mind.

        • Reply

          Fluffy McGee

          5 months ago

          Yeah it seems everyone disagrees with me on this one today. I guess I shall give in. From now on, I when I tell girls I don’t care if I sleep with them, I will mean it deep down inside ~

          • Amanda

            3 months ago

            lmao, touche mf touche

  • Reply

    Kenji

    5 months ago

    That’s a very good post. Considering I myself am extremely aggressive, often use tactic number 1 and also get a ton of LMR ;p

    Just being cool with it (really) has never been advocated in the community, and after reading this post there are a ton of times in my head when I could’ve turned things around/ had sex with a girl/ not let things become so sour had I just been genuinely okay and chill.

    So…. I’m gonna do this from now on ,)

    Also just joined your G3 program btw Mark. Good times ahead man ;)

    • Reply

      Fluffy McGee

      5 months ago

      Shhhh it’s not a tactic!

      (ok going to stop posting for real this time)

  • Reply

    Joey

    5 months ago

    say you bang a girl in the bathroom at a club, is that because you had killer game or cuz that girl just wanted to fuck in the bathroom.

    in this case there’s no doubt good game was being run, but at the same time the girl obviously wanted to party and “have fun” and didn’t seem like she would care much with who or how that happened.

    i’m not trying to devalue a sweet lay report here or anything.

    i do feel like game is over-rated and the girls agenda is underrated tho.

    i also know that due to a shit ton of experience opening sets and sending students in, a lot of instructors can develop a good sense of which sets are going to be receptive and which ones are not.

    • Reply

      Mark

      5 months ago

      I agree with you that a girl’s agenda is underrated and a guy’s game is overrated. I see “game” as a man as being able to spot how receptive a certain girl will be or how much potential there is with each girl and then making a move appropriately.

      I don’t think women ever go out saying, “I want to get fucked in the bathroom tonight.” But they do have a certain range of willingness to do crazy or sexual things that changes.

      As a man it’s your job to push for what you want and hope that she’s interested in the same thing.

      • Reply

        hilanoga

        5 months ago

        I don’t think women ever go out saying, “I want to get fucked in the bathroom tonight.”

        I beg to differ.

        • Reply

          Fluffy McGee

          5 months ago

          And we are all so grateful that women like you exist =]

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            No you don’t! I’m an angry feminist!
            I grow hair between my teeth and eat men for breakfast in my gingerbread cottage (while watching tentacle porn, of course).

          • Fluffy McGee

            5 months ago

            Lol =]
            Feminists aren’t all angry right? Sometimes they just want some respect aye?

            /highfive hilanoga

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            *Dances around*
            R-E-S-P-E-C-T
            Find out what it means to me!
            Ooooh, just a little bit!

            Ok, sorry Mark, I’ll stop scaring away all the guests ;)

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            And sometimes I do have hair between my teeth, it’s just isn’t. exactly. growing there…

            ROFL!

          • Mark

            5 months ago

            Oy vey…

  • Reply

    Matt T

    5 months ago

    “And at one point while kissing, I begin to take it further.”

    The word “begin” makes the ending ambiguous, but I’m not gonna lie, that’s kinda cool. I like your style Entropy.

  • Reply

    questra

    5 months ago

    Great post Mark. Really appreciated it. A lot.

  • Reply

    Money Mike

    5 months ago

    What’s a good way to get a girl to suck you off if she thinks that’s nasty and shes already comfortable with you? I tried some stuff like telling her it’s like licking a lollipop and hand jobs but no go.

  • Reply

    Matt T

    5 months ago

    I think a lot of PUAs say that you shouldn’t ask for a blowjob the first time you’re in bed with her, since it triggers a “state break”, that is to say, it forces her to logically confront the possibility that she may be sleeping with you, which may lead to LMR.

    • Reply

      hilanoga

      5 months ago

      You really should give women more credit than that.
      We are generally aware of what’s going on around us, you know.

      Some women just don’t like giving blowjobs from various reasons. Some don’t like being asked. some just don’t want to do it *right now* but maybe later after some foreplay or after some meetings, once they get to know you, they will. Some don’t want to suck on your dick ’cause it’s too big, and frankly – it fucking hurts. Some just puke really easily and it can get embarrassing. Some won’t touch you without a condom and I’m yet to find the guy who will accept a blowjob while wearing a condom. Some are a bit conservative. Some think it’s gross. Some don’t want to because your balls smell funny. Some think the way you ask it is repulsive and now they are turned off and wonder how they can go home without the situation becoming too awkward. Some don’t trust you not to cum in their mouth/on their face/on their breasts because they’ve met too many guys who did it in spite of the fact they asked them not to. Some don’t know how to give a good head and they just feel insecure. Some are worried you’ll think they are sluts. Some wonder if you’ll cum and leave them unsatisfied. Some have other reasons.

      But you know what doesn’t happen? We don’t go around with static noise in our heads and then when we are asked to give head we suddenly “wake up”, realize we are having sex, and feel the urge to run away.

      Now, if you spent three seconds asking the particular girl you are with *why* she doesn’t want to do it instead of speculating about her psychology with *other men* who never bothered to ask an actual woman, you might have gotten an honest answer that you could actually *work with* (i.e – spending more time on foreplay, explaining how you like it, building trust, whatever).

      Jeez, PUA advice is such crap sometimes.

      • Reply

        Fluffy McGee

        5 months ago

        *high five for hilanoga*

        • Reply

          hilanoga

          5 months ago

          :D

          • Money Mike

            5 months ago

            I did ask why and I wrote it in my post above. She simply thinks it’s nasty just in general to put a penis in her mouth. Hilanoga that was an amazing explanation btw.

          • Money Mike

            5 months ago

            What advice do you have for me now? How do I get her to do it? She’s already comfortable with me.

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            I’ll answer that if you can answer my question.

            My BF thinks sleeping with other men is nasty, and has no interest in doing so. I think it’s hot and I want him to sleep with another man while I’m watching.

            How can I convince him to do that, assuming he is comfortable with me?

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            (I asked that because I’m trying to get somewhere,not to be annoying, so give it some serious thought).

          • hilanoga

            5 months ago

            And thanks :P

      • Reply

        Amanda

        3 months ago

        He is obv not dealing with women of the same ilk, I know many females who would balk at the suggestion and it could cause them to rethink the situation. Like me in my early 20′s. Great explanation for why, but no thought to who.

  • Reply

    redsunrising

    5 months ago

    What an awesome field report. You ought to have a tag called ‘field reports’ and fill it up with posts like this. This was the first time I actually enjoyed reading a story like this.

    Dude, I love the respect you show to women. I love your advice not to push on the LMR – though I wish you had emphasized the ‘right thing to do’ angle more than the ‘hey, it might actually work’ angle.

    Enjoying your blog more and more. Keep it up!

  • Reply

    ggg ggg

    5 months ago

    Yeah man…everytime I’m with a girl and I try hard not to get laid it ends up happening….and she comes hard cause I’m letting it breath.

    I’m super cool either way sex or not. It’ll be great, but I don’t want to have bad sex.

    Lets cuddle anyway…

    Uh well. We’re horny now.

    Girl takes my dick and puts inside her. I take it out.

    Well, now she is pissed…devalidated. Asks me if I want to fuck her or not. So I have to fuck her now.

    Jesus.

  • Reply

    ggg ggg

    5 months ago

    Do you think been with 3 guys only is a lie ?

    • Reply

      Mark

      5 months ago

      Nope.

  • Reply

    hilanoga

    5 months ago

    I think it’s very relevant to what you guys do, so it may be worth you while to watch this talk.

    • Reply

      Kurt

      5 months ago

      Thanks for this link. This might be the most interesting thing I’ve watched/read all year. The speaker tells a sad story. I wish it surprised me more. Quoting the PDF:

      “The students in my sample said that no one wants to admit that they want a boyfriend or girlfriend because it makes them feel vulnerable in a culture in which it is assumed that everyone else only wanted to have casual sex. This is called pluralistic ignorance, when a large proportion of a population misunderstands reality. My respondents tended to think that other people thought that people who would only have sex under conditions of romantic relationships were … mmmm boring … maybe sexually repressed … like hung up on love and desperate for a boyfriend or girlfriend. Embarrassing, really. In fact, 70% of female and 73% of male college students report that they’d like to have a committed relationship … but they don’t know that other people want that too because hook up culture
      dominates the sexual scene and expressing emotions is off script.”

      “Expressing emotions is off script.” If true, then being human is “off script”.

      • Reply

        hilanoga

        5 months ago

        True.
        The moment I realized I didn’t have to sleep with guys I don’t even like was really empowering for me, which is quite sad if you come to think about it.

        Anyway – today I always say that the best way to pick-up is when you become friends for a night with the other person.

  • Reply

    James

    4 months ago

    Next time, you can try Uber cab. Would have 100% avoided that logistical nightmare. https://www.uber.com/

  • Reply

    lushfun

    3 months ago

    very nice story wish there was a video to go along with it lol

  • Reply

    RA

    3 months ago

    When grasping for something you only emphasise the distance between the object and yourself.

    The dancer and the actor are twinned. PUA is very actorlike in the sense that it gives a person a script to follow which tells the person what to do with a little room for improvisation here and there. The problem of acting is that it maintains the distance between the actor and the persona. The persona is the primary object actors wrestle with. Because of this distance between persona and the actor there is no time to play with the audience.

    Acting can become something more than acting when it can be transmuted into something greater than itself. If the actor wishes to transcend himself, then first of all he must learn how to dance. In practice this usually is done through gradually increasing the amount of improvisation done in his act. Once his act is completely improvised he should get rid of acting and of improvisation.

    PUA tends to get stuck in the actor fase which simply leaves the actor drained due to having to wrestle his shadow each and everytime he acts, inner game tends to move to the second stage, but this sometimes is done prematurely. Without the form learned through acting, it can quite easily result in the person simply becoming a bad dancer. Bad dancers tend to step on their own toes too often, which sucks all the pleasure out of dancing. A bad dancer benefits from the order created by learning how to act. Micromanaging form can result in losing the ability to dance though, so it is very much a balancing act.

    Once you get the balance right and enjoy abundance of both substance and form something becomes play. Play is the highest form of being and of becoming.

  • Reply

    A

    3 months ago

    I learned so much here–especially the long walk home not ruining the night. Thanks, man.

    Respects

    A

  • Reply

    Seriously

    3 months ago

    Do you feel somewhat scummy for seducing a 19 year old while you are in your late 20′s? I get that she is “legal” and it was her choice, but the impression I got from this article was that she was very young, very naive, and very confused about what she wanted. Most 19 year old girls are.

    • Reply

      Mark Manson

      3 months ago

      THat’s kind of the point of the article.

    • Reply

      Zac

      3 months ago

      I’m a little confused by the comment. What is there to feel scummy about? Is sex bad? Are 19 year olds less capable of consenting to sex as a 27 year old? Would she have been better off sleeping with another 19 year old?

      • Reply

        Mark Manson

        3 months ago

        I think it has less to do with age and more to do with maturity and experience. I’ve met 30-year-old women who seemingly had no clue what they were doing, and 20-year-olds who were extremely mature and conscientious.

  • Reply

    hollywood hank

    3 months ago

    ….dawg

  • Reply

    Carson

    1 month ago

    Being unfamiliar with the acronym “LMR”, I thought maybe it meant “leave my room”.

    Turns out, it doesn’t…and it does.

  • Reply

    adam

    5 weeks ago

    Did you ever find out of she took a massive dump?

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